Paul Himalayan Musk

[climbingrose]

Hi everyone,

Last autumn(2006) I was given 2 small cuttings from a very old lady who came back from visiting her daughter in Holland. Within 6 weeks, the 3 inches cuttings successfully rooted and by springtime, one of the 2 rooted cuttings got to about 8 inches tall and made a bud.
http://www.peterbealesroses.com/forum/gallery.php?pid=786
By mid May 2007, the only bud bloomed but I wasn’t around to capture the newly opened flower. When I got back, that solo flower looked a bit spent.
http://www.peterbealesroses.com/forum/gallery.php?pid=785
Anyway, if you are growing Paul Himalayan Musk rambler, could you please take a good look at this 2 pictures and let me know what you think??
The old lady came over to my house this evening. I asked her for the umptheenth time…and she is very sure that she took the cutting from a monster PHM which is growing in her daughter’s garden.
…problem is: none of the PHM pictures I’ve seen in the books or catalogues look anywhere close to this bloom of mine….
@Hannes: I know you have PHM in your garden. Could you please post me a close up picture of your PHM bloom? ….and if possible a close up leaves of PHM too….(if you have any?)
I hope I am not asking too much….
Rae

PS: Today, the very same rose in the picture has grown to a meter tall. Very skinny but looks like ready to branch out soon...
If this is PHM, I would like to move this rose to somewhere else soon...and cancel my order before spring delivery. I'm not sure if I would like to have the third PHM. Would have to change my order for another rambler...

[Camilla]

Hi Rae.

I dont have this rose myself but I have seen it this summer in an Norwegian rosarie. And as far as I remember it did not look like this.
It was much more white in the colour of the flowers. But I can remember wrong.
You should se if the colour fades to white when the flowers are getting old. I think they do that.
Link to photos on HMF: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=4693&tab=10

But anyway it ts a very nice rose you have on the photo.

I hope Hannes can help. :)

Best Regards
Camilla

[climbingrose]

Hi Camilla,
I also don't think this is Paul Himalayan Musk but the old lady insisted that she took the cutting from PHM. The reason I poste here now is because I don't want to go into a debate with an elderly.... ;) ...if you know what I mean...

Looking forward to what other PHM grower has to say about this rose....
Rae

Just added: As the flower fades, it turns more purplish....but not as dark like veilchenblau. This rose has a nice fragrance too.
....but rose colour can differ too depending on the soil pH?? ...and first bloom from a young plant are usually not really that perfectly formed??

[hannes]

Hello Rae,
... sorry about PHM photos ... already told here that stupid me lost most of the older photos due to a HD crash. And somehow I didn't even take one pic of PHM this year. I have found three photos from last year among the few I backed up on CD-R but sadly all three are of a bad quality (not exactly sharp, somewhat overexposed, ...). Anyway, I have selected the "best" of these three to post it here. Hope this helps.

I too don' think that your rose is PHM. As Camilla said, PHM has more white in the flowers and the flowers completely fade to white as they mature; blooms in clusters on quite long thin stems. Foliage of PHM also is different compared to your photo: semi glossy – very smooth and flat surface (veins are visible but not pronounced), much more pointed, serration is not that pronounced. The canes have some very sharp and hooked prickles.

And I agree with Camilla: Your rose is very nice.

Hannes

http://www.inthenet.co.at/bilder/roses/phm2.jpg

[Maribel]

Rae, how old was the kind lady...? :)

and ps, Hannes, what a gorgeous photo, as usual. Can't imagine what your lost photos must have looked like. PHM looks stunning in that pine. :)

[hannes]

@ Rae: Here's an excellent and large close-up of PHM's flowers (found this one on the website of a Japanese nursery): CLICK HERE (http://www.hanafes.jp/photo/5002_1b836d6f54c9ed1c74be98327ad8fcc2.jpg).

@ Maribel: ... glad you like the photo. As for the lost pics: some good ones, some not that good. I'm not much of a photographer, more the point & click type but sometimes I get lucky with a shot.

[climbingrose]

@ Rae: Here's an excellent and large close-up of PHM's flowers (found this one on the website of a Japanese nursery): CLICK HERE (http://www.hanafes.jp/photo/5002_1b836d6f54c9ed1c74be98327ad8fcc2.jpg).
Thanks ever so much Hannes. You are ...... such a ....(thinking hard to find the right word) ah well... I'll say it....you are such a "rosedarling" ....as we would say it back in england!! oppps... now you know a bit more about me. yes....I am half english :)
That photo from the Jap. nursery clearly show that my oldlady's PHM is not a Paul Himalayan Musk.

Thank you for posting your gorgeous picture too. I could see clearly the leaves and thorns are totally different. Somewhat the oldlady’s rose looks more like veilchenblau to me but the bloom colouring does not match at all.

I’ve decided --- not going to change my order list now and having one PHM from the nursery will be good for visual comparison to the old Lady’s so called PHM. Now I am wondering what kind of rambler is this? Too bad I don’t have any other photos of the bloom and that picture was taken on a very grey day.

Rae

[climbingrose]

Rae, how old was the kind lady...? :)
Hi Maribel,
That thoughtful very nice old lady is in her late 70’s ( one of mum’s oldest best friend) I think she treats me more or less like one of her children too….as she knew I am sooooo into gardening and roses, she always bring me something from the garden of her children whenever she came back from visiting them. I have a few other cuttings from her and most of these roses I have no real ID. I am very lazy when it comes to doing my own cuttings and multiplication, but the fact that she thought of me when she saw a rose bush and brought back a small tiny twig for my garden…..that really touch me so deep….

Actually, this so called oldlady’s PHM has a significant story behind it. At the time she gave me the cuttings, it was at a time when she took her ailing husband to visit their daughter’s twins’ birthday in Holland. The same day she brought the cuttings to me, was the very same evening her husband went into hospital’s intensive care. When I took the picture of that rose you saw, it was the week all of us was staying vigil by the candle lights. The oldlady’s husband passed away 2 days after the rose picture was taken. Silly me didn’t use a proper camera to take a better picture of this rose. You know, when things are kind of in a somber mood, the mind just failed to make sense of a lot of things.

Everytime the oldlady came to visit me, she always asked how is the “Himalayan rose doing?”
I think this rose meant a lot to her…and I think this rose meant a lot to me too, despite the fact that I will never know the real ID of this rose for a long time, unless I get her daughter to came and ID it, whom I’ve only met once or twice in the last few years.
Given her age and the story I have written above, probably you’d understand why I don’t feel too good to disagree with her especially when she 150% believed that she had taken the cuttings from PHM.

Rae

[Maribel]

What a lovely story Rae. I think it is a beautiful illustration of just how much meaning is bound up with our gardens in all sorts of ways. Stories like yours that are so personal but also so unspoken that they will almost certainly be lost when the garden's owner moves or passes away. Imagine knowing the entire history of your garden - what meant what to whom, and why. I think it would be quite extraordinary. From what you have said in other posts, seems to me that you have a very 'symbolic' approach to your own garden, would be a lovely subject for a novel! Maybe your elderly friend's husband is trying to tell his wife something through your mutated PHM! :)
Maribel
ps Hannes, don't be so modest. You have a great eye for photos. Your 'point-and-click' method sure works for me, anyway :)

[climbingrose]

Maybe your elderly friend's husband is trying to tell his wife something through your mutated PHM! :)
….that gave me the goose bumps…

What a lovely story Rae. I think it is a beautiful illustration of just how much meaning is bound up with our gardens in all sorts of ways. Stories like yours that are so personal but also so unspoken that they will almost certainly be lost when the garden's owner moves or passes away. Imagine knowing the entire history of your garden - what meant what to whom, and why. I think it would be quite extraordinary. From what you have said in other posts, seems to me that you have a very 'symbolic' approach to your own garden, would be a lovely subject for a novel!
…. if you agree to buy my novel, I will begin writing one now…. :lol:
Someone once said that the reason I am totally engrossed in my garden is because I was trying to escape the daily life stress/pressures.
There could be some truth in it, but there was a time when I missed my dad too much that I created a memorial corner for him in the garden and while working the earth, I heard him talking in my head…. Such is a child that never grows up in my aging body :lol:
Then I got into rose fever...and the garden just kept growing and expanding....:)
Rae

[Mellie]

Hi
I know what you mean I have daffodils and apple mint from my mother in laws garden, it really means something when you see them flowering and saying to the children theres your grandmothers daffodils. She died over 10 years ago and the daffs and mint just keep her memory alive
Mellie

[taddy]

To have roses around is really nice but, I think, is nicer when they have a story!
To buy them will never make them so belonging to us as the ones we had from ... or picked from .... or belonged to .....
History has deep roots in our brain and emotions, also when roses are concerned!

[admin]

Hi Rae,

Your rose is not Paul Himalayan Musk for definite.

Have you got any other pictures of the parent rose, or could you get any? This would help us identify it. Else when she blooms next year perhaps you could take some pictures for us to ident from?

re: Roses having memories, we always grew "Grans Rose" in our garden when I was growing up... It was nice to identify this (still going rose!) as White Cockade so that I can carry on growing it too.


Pete

[climbingrose]

Hi Pete,
Thank you and most unfortunately I haven’t got any pictures of the parent plant or any other info about this rose except based on the oldlady’s description that it is a monster rambler growing up a tree and it is in a shade.
Actually, after seeing the only bloom, I have tried to convince the oldlady that this is not Paul Himalayan Musk and I have even showed her a picture of the real PHM from the catalogues and also my encyclopaedia but she adamantly/insisted that this is a PHM and she knew it is PHM because its growing up the tree in Lisa’s garden!!! :lol: What more can I say?? I can go into long debate about roses but I don’t want to give her the impression that I’m doubting her “memory” or that she’s “losing it”… I think you understand what I mean….

There are other reasons why I haven't gotten intouch with "Lisa" to ask a bit more about the parent plant. I am not sure if "Lisa" knew I have a bit of her monster rambler growing in my garden. The last time I saw "Lisa" was during the funeral of her father and everyone was teary and I totally forgotten about this rose :(

Until I see "Lisa" again (which I don't know when) I look forward to next spring and will take pictures of this rose bush and its blooms from all angles and hopefully your expertise can pin down the exact ID of this silent controversial rose :lol:

If I find out anything, I'll let you all know too...
Rae