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Welcome to Peter Beales Roses: A discussion forum for roses, run by rose lovers for rose lovers both experienced and those just getting into the wonderful world of roses.
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Hi everyone,
On the subject of mycorrhiza, can someone clarify if this is just to help the funghi levels in the soil or if it also acts as a fertilizer as well. I have always planted my roses with Toprose in the planting hole, when I planted the last three I had no toprose left - but had a sachet of David Austin's Start (mycorrhiza stuff), so I used that in the planting hole, now I'm not sure if I should have used a Toprose type product as well. Can anyone give me any advice.
Also, can anyone tell me about using banana skins for fertilizer - should they be rotted or just chopped up fresh and thrown on top of the soil around the roses? As we eat a lot of bananas it would be a jolly good way of utilizing the skins. 
Thanks
Julie
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Hi Julie,
The Mycorrhiza isn't a substitute for feed. The Mycorrhiza just aims to give the plant the best start in life by aiding in the uptake of the food around it. As a consequence you also need to have some food in the form of Top Rose or whatever you prefer. A liquid feed like Tomorite is propbably the best thing you can use at the moment then after the prune next spring get feeding with Top Rose again.
As for banana skins, they are high in potassium and so aid with flowering. I guess that they should be chopped up a little and quite brown when put near the rose, then I guess a little digging in wouldn't hurt either. People with large bushes just throw the whole skin at the base of the rose, but this could be quite unsightly for smaller bush roses!
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Hi Pete,
Thanks for your prompt reply, I have some liquid tomato feed in, so I'll get that on them. - and start chopping up the banana skins!!!
Julie
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Let us know how you get on with the banana skins and if you notice an big improvement.
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Ooh, we produce at least one banana skin per day which normally just go in the compost with everything else. Maybe I'll save them now for the roses.
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The first banana skin went on 2 days ago. Chopped up and mixed in the compost around a rose that although has flowered currently doesn't have a single bud, another one about to another rose.
Will keep you posted.
Julie
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If I have a planted rose which isn't doing well I stick a long metal rod in the soil, fairly deep down, close up and when it's withdrawn I pour in diluted Mycorrhiza. I do this in three or four places. I check first for ants - the tiny fire ants we have here definitely affect the plant adversely - any plant, come to that. My guess is that they create heat around the roots. Regards, Ravenna
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I was interested about the fire ants and their bad effects on rose growth, as they have made their way over here recently and are said to form massive colonies. I was wondering what you do if you find them?. Also, thanks for the tip on using Mycorrhiza.
Prudence
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Hi Prudencel,
The ants are an ongoing problem. I try to keep the soil unlittered and any time I see them in flowerbeds I dig around as much as possible. I once asked a nurseryman if he had ant problems and he said no, because they were always moving the soil. People say you shouldn't move the soil around roses but in this clay I think they're grateful. What is also bothersome is that these pesky critters love pots and my cactus are riddled with them - and everything else in a pot, too. I hate using systemics, or any chemical, come to that, so I try putting leaves from aromatic plants around them, ones the insects leave alone. Hope spring eternal! We have another ant besides fire ants and leaf-cutters - I don't know the name, but they're shiny, and long and give quite a sting. They make a mound of earth over the nest. I was told to leave them alone, as they are aggressive and combat the others. Good news!
Regards, Ravenna
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hi, I have been using Rootgrow for some time and would not want to be without it. There are different types of myccorhiza, some of which are very plant specific. In rootgrow, there are 2 types. one to improve disease resistance and the other to increase the root surface area, I think. It is important to make sure that the myccorhiza comes into direct contact with the roots so you cannot add it as a top dressing. Ausma, another product, contains humates and fulvic acid and is available online from the wonderful N A Kays horticultural suppliers. Try them - a marvellous source of loads of stuff.
Mary, I am thinking of drying out the roots of myccorhiza innoculated plants and using them as a next generation innoculant. Am going to set up a trial with 3 Rootgrow plants, 3 dried root plants and 3 with no additives. I LOVE doing these little experiments so will report back to forum. Better not say which plants I use the myccorhizae on usually - not just roses!
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campanula wrote:
hi, I have been using Rootgrow for some time and would not want to be without it.
Hi Suzy,
Nice to hear from you and it's wonderful to get some more feedback. It's always difficult to assign "cause" to what might be just good luck or good choices in varieties, etc. but hearing about someone else's "good luck" brings me closer to thinking that there might be some "cause" involved in our good luck with mycorrhiza.
I don't think I ever want to be without it either, and am only getting stronger in that viewpoint the more I read. I've been doing some reading up on camellias lately and noticed someone suggesting mycorrhiza to help problems with that plant too. I kind of think that I've seen such growth and good health in our camellias since we've had a rainy year... that if the plants had had some additional mycorrhizal help in the root area during less than perfect watering through the previous drought years here, that fewer would have had survival problems then.
The fellow who sold me the mycorrhiza went to some lengths to say that the mycorrhiza treated plants could more easily withstand droughts and cold temperatures too. I am expecting all our roses to make it through the winter here, but perhaps those that didn't get the mycorrhiza treatment might experience some cane death, I suppose. Anyway, our roses with the mycorrhiza took off growing in an amazing fashion when planted.
There are different types of myccorhiza, some of which are very plant specific. In rootgrow, there are 2 types. one to improve disease resistance and the other to increase the root surface area, I think.
I tried at one point to pin down the actual biologic ingredients specific to which plants. I wasn't able to locate much at all on it. Did you manage to find anything that named the microrganisms associated with particular plants?
The mycorrhiza that I bought has multiple ingredients, and they don't all necessarily work for roses. I still don't know which do and which don't. (On the other hand, maybe those that don't, do still work for camellias...)
Ausma, another product, contains humates and fulvic acid and is available online from the wonderful N A Kays horticultural suppliers. Try them - a marvellous source of loads of stuff.
I haven't had any luck in locating that in the US yet. Sounds good, though.
Mary, I am thinking of drying out the roots of myccorhiza innoculated plants and using them as a next generation innoculant. Am going to set up a trial with 3 Rootgrow plants, 3 dried root plants and 3 with no additives. I LOVE doing these little experiments so will report back to forum. Better not say which plants I use the myccorhizae on usually - not just roses!
Sounds like a great idea, Suzy! However it turns out, if you find any differences of any kind, it will be valuable information. Actually, the more I think about it, finding no differences would be valuable too! Go for it!
My guess would be that the plants with the ground up dried roots, even though the roots once had a mycorrhiza association, might have survival problems. My guess is based on the current theory regarding Rose Replant Disease--i.e., that it is caused by the breakdown of the rose roots, and also based on the speculation that whatever mycorrhiza that once were attached would be all pulled off when separating the roots from the roses you take the roots from. Theory only, obviously! But if and assuming you don't find any survival problems, then it might pertain to the degree of worry as to RRD. I've been wondering what the actual probability is. (I've read about it online, but none of my rose books actually mention this as a problem. I've just assumed that it's a relatively recent insight, but I don't really know.)
If you have the space and plants to add three more for testing, you might want to plant three roses without mycorrhiza but with ground up roots of ordinary roses, roses never exposed to mycorrhiza at all. And ideally all roses would be planted in ground previously not planted with roses at all. Also ideally, the three plant varieties chosen in each of the three (or four) groups would all be the same variety, same age, same everything to the extent that that might be possible.
What fertilizer you use might be important too.
One other little wrinkle in analysis might be to take into account the actual change in the roots of a rose that has had a mycorrhizal attachment and compare that to the ordinary rose roots. (Do you have a good microscope, by any chance?)
According to the fellow who sold me my mycorrhiza, once a rose has started to use the mycorrhiza to keep itself growing, it no longer has the same degree of ability to get by on its own. So if you do something to kill off the mycorrhiza (something like putting normally strong fertilizer on the rose), the plant will suffer so much that it might not survive. His advice includes making sure that anyone who buys your property knows about the mycorrhiza treated roses and their different needs, so your roses don't get inadvertently killed.
Why would this idea matter in analysis? Well, the changes in the roots that had the mycorrhiza treatment to them might have the effect of undoing some or all of the presumed damage that might otherwise occur with Rose Replant Disease. That is, if the roots are changed, their biochemistry would likely be changed too... and their breakdown products changed, as well. Maybe whatever breakdown product causes RRD might no longer be present? So if you got an improvement, that might be one way to explain it. Just a thought.
Well, Suzy, the more I think about it, the more I think you just ought to set up a microbiology lab or something like that!
Just kidding. 
But you do have a good idea here for some research. Depending on results, you might find a good use for those rose varieties we're always reading about people shovel-pruning (if those roses have been growing with mycorrhiza).
Good luck with your investigations!
Best wishes,
Mary
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Yes Suzy keep us informed on your findings, that is very interesting.
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I have no pretensions to being truly scientific but I am keen on trying things out so I am going to set up a little comparison experiment. Using roses is beyond my space and budget so I am going to use salvias. Woody shrubs (A.microphylla var.neurepia) that are easy to propagate so I can use one mother plant to provide sample material. The innoculated plant material is different from the test samples (tsk, sounding pompous already). I haven't decided on what I am looking for yet but I will definately report anything interesting.
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http://www.mastergardeneronline.com/
Open the link above. At the top go to back issues and place your arrow on it.
Go to winter 2009 and click. At the top where it says "jump to" type in 25. Click on jump. There is a good Mycorrhizae article.
Click to enlarge.
Last edited by jim1961 (2010-02-18 03:28:26)
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Thank you for the link, Jim. Very much appreciated!
The winter 2009 issue also has another interesting article by the same author on page 40. In her regular column "myths, miracles... or marketing" Linda Chalker-Scott writes about using coffee grounds for the compost pile or straight away as mulch.
greetings
Hannes
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Yes, I have read her article on Coffee Grounds in the past and other articles she has written. Thanks for pointing it out though.
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I'd love to hear more about the Mycorrhizea experiments going on in this thread.
I like to hear about real-life, hands on results, whether good or bad.
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Last spring, our still rather juvenile weeping cherry trees started out in spring not looking so good. It did not leaf out very vigorously and one main branch was clearly dead. Then, in horror, we watched as the tree seem to die from the top down. One branch after another, starting at the crown and then the next branch down, and so on. Looking back, whatever was wrong with it probably started toward the end of the previous summer, b/c I remember thinking then that it was looking somewhat stressed. I just attributed it to the heat. We researched, trying to figure out what was wrong with it, but nothing was clearly the answer. We sprayed it - not something we usually do in our garden, but that didn't help at all, and may have hurt it. It did seem to have a dark, sooty film all over the bark, which I scrubbed off using a rough pad and water, but it continued to die. In a last ditch effort, we ordered some mycorrhiza specifically for weeping cherries (or so it is promoted - I didn't look to see how it might be different than that sold "specifically" for other types of trees) and applied it. We pushed a rod down in the earth at intervals at the base of the tree and then poured the mycorrhiza/concoction into each hold. I have to tell you, the tree at that point looked so bad, I figured it was a goner. Well, it survived, though not without permanent damage. 
Not to be overly dramatic, but it really did seem to turn around overnight. It stopped dying, and the bark, that had become dull and ugly colored, began to regain its lovely red sheen, and then the leaves on the brances that were still alive started to look healthier and then, it started pushing out new growth (below the "dead" mark). Still, going into an extremely cool, wet winter, we were concerned it would not survive to spring. In February, we treated it again with the mycorrhiza, before we were even sure if it was still alive and I have to tell you, that is now the healthiest little deformed weeping cherry I've ever seen. It looks healthier than before it got sick even .. except for it missing it's top three feet, which is very unfortunate. 
In fact, it rather pitiful looking overall, since it is so badly deformed.
BUT, what I really found fascinating was, about the same time the weeping cherry starting failing, so did my Joseph's Coat climber. I actually noticed it being sickly much sooner than the cherry tree, and they are planted within 5 feet of each other. It did leaf out last spring, but it seemed to struggle all summer, and by fall, I thought it might not make it through the winter. In February, about the same time we treated the cherry tree with the mycorrhiza, I also cut the Joseph Coat down nearly to the ground, and left only a short stretch of one still somewhat healthy looking cane, hopping it would send out some new canes. It did show signs of activity, but lagged far behind other roses in the garden at first. I really thought it would fail completely. But in the past couple of weeks, it has really started to take off, much to my relief. The cane I left has branched out and another two canes have come up from the base and it has some buds on it. I've been wondering if it was benefiting belatedly from the mycorrhiza. It makes some sense (to me anyway) that, b/c it is 5 feet behind the cherry tree, against the house, but in the same bed, it would have taken longer for the benefits of the treatement to migrate close enough for it to benefit also. The cherry tree is build up a little, for drainage; water and nutrients washing down from the cherry tree would gradually make it to the joseph coat. I guess.
I wish I knew what had sickened both of them - it makes me nervous not knowing. My best guess is that our septic tank imploded last March and we had to have it replaced. It's possible that there was leakage (yuk!) into the soil under and around the tank, which naturally drained in the direction of the cherry tree and Joseph Coat ... but anyway, I"m rambling. Whatever was going on, I have no doubt that the mycorrhiza saved the cherry tree, such that it is. I'm less certain that it played a role in saving Joseph, but it does seem promising.
I'm really interested also in how this plays out for others. I wish I had some before pics to share of the cherry tree and joseph. Alas, I did not take pics while they were sickly.
Nanine
Last edited by jnmccool (2010-04-18 20:26:59)
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And, now having read the article referenced above, I have NO IDEA what saved the cherry tree. Dumb luck, I guess.
Hannes - thanks for the reference also to the coffee grounds. We have been throwing ours out b/c I was told not to put them in the compost pile, but now we will. In comparison to the remaining compost, the little bit of coffee grounds can't possibly hurt ... right?
Nanine
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