Peter Beales Roses Online Community Forum

hannes wrote:

You are right, the choice of short climbers with your specifications is rather limited. But if you compromise about the prickles there are many more available. (And not to forget, 'Perle des Blanches' also seems to have a lot of prickles).

Oh, I didn't know that. Well, I'll scratch that one! Unfortunately, so many websites don't bother to mention thorns. I'm beginning to think that if a rose does substantially lack thorns, the website will probably mention the near-thornless quality but otherwise won't detail exactly how bad it might be. But that doesn't seem to be totally consistent either.

The lack of thorns on a plant that is a climber going higher than a low fence is fairly important, I think, given the difficulty in reaching things (for training the canes) while having to swim among its thorns. So the presence of _lots_ of thorns means that variety isn't going to get ordered for anything other than perhaps a low fence--assuming I can find out about a plant's thorns.

If you can't get 'Perle des Blanches', there are some Hybrid Musks other than 'Cornelia' that should be suitable.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that there are some. Though I've actually given some thought to using Cornelia in that spot instead of the spot originally envisioned for Cornelia. I guess I'll find out how that gets decided when it's time to get that plant into the ground??? !

I'm thinking of 'Darlow's Enigma' for example. Or what about other Noisettes than 'Perle des Blanches'? 'Bouquet Tout Fait' comes to mind or the more pink Tea Noisette 'Elie Beauvillain'. As you seem to be not that far away from Ashdown Roses perhaps check out their website, they have a number of great roses.

Mind reader! I came pretty close to deciding on Darlow's Enigma last night and Ashdown does have it! But then I also came pretty close to deciding on Renae after that too. I was reading how floppy Renae's stems are, and thinking how nice a quality that might be, both in the weeping looks of it from the height of that tree pole, and from the standpoint of making it easy to train on its way up the pole. And then I thought about how really nice the color of Wilhelm would be in that particular spot; it's not in full sun, but pretty much in the open and a noticeable red might have more impact against a fairly complicated/competing backdrop (including our neighbor's carport area). But I know nothing of how floppy/flexible the stems might be for any plants other than Renae. And, though I can read that Wilhelm has "a few" prickles, that's not quite the same thing as saying that it has "few" prickles either. Either Darlow's Enigma or Renae might have fewer thorns than Wilhelm does, though I'm not sure about that either. I think eventually I'd like to have all three of them somewhere or other... I'm just having trouble deciding for just this one spot...  for now, at least.

I did decide that in this one case, as much as I love whites and off-whites generally that I'm going to put those colors into an adjacent and somewhat more shaded spot edging our woods. (Except that there's a Fragrant Wave already ordered, so unless it goes into the front yard, it will be there near the tree pole too.) So, I will go for 'Perle des Blanches' or other whites/off-whites at some point, but not right away. I hadn't considered Bouquet Tout Fait, but appreciate the information, Hannes; I definitely will consider it for the future in spots where I'd like to see white. Sombreuil looks good too.

When I think about the Julia Child and Cinco De Mayo that will be there near the tree pole, I'm thinking that something with a noticeable color on the pole would look the best... and that the almost thornless yellow of Jeri Jennings would probably be spectacular. But the yellow centers on Darlow's Enigma would probably be wonderful with Julia Child too. I like the looks of Darlow's Enigma quite a bit, especially in contrast to the more traditional double rose looks of Julia Child.

We aren't ready to order anything else yet. Lots of planting work ahead, just to get the roses already ordered into the ground. So I'll likely be thinking about this tree pole for quite some time into the future, arranging/rearranging in my mind's eye. A fairly pleasant activity, not too far different that putting colors on a canvas... except that this particular canvas is so easily erasable!

Thanks so much for your information Hannes.

Mary

P.S. My husband thinks they'll all look good, no matter which colors go where. And he might be right! But I'm still enjoying fooling around with different pictures in my head.

Mary

I too have heard Darlow's Eigma was thorny.  I my bit the bullet so to speak and get it any way because it is so shade tolerant.  You may want to ask Paul or Trish at Ashdown for suggestions on a rose that will meet your needs.

Cyndy, I remember someone here recommeded Lyda Rose and it may have been you in a thread about shade tolerant roses.  I have look her up again.  Thanks for bringing her up again.

R/
Elizabeth

Mary

That is one of the great thinga I like about this forum, you will always get a trueful answer to any questions.   Quite a few of the nurseries like the ones Cyndy suggested have great search engines.  Two others that come to mined are Heirloom and Ashdown. 

It sounds like you are moving right along with your roses.

R/Elizabeth

cyndyp wrote:

Renae is really a beautiful climber.  If I ever have the space, she's at the top of my list.

Cyndy

Renae is doing great, still in her 1-gallon pot, but needs repotting now in something larger, to hold her until we get around to the big job of fixing the tree-pole area.

I just came in from spraying the vulnerable roses with Deer Off. That should have been done quite a few days ago, but when I happened to think of it earlier, it was either raining or rain was forcasted that would have just washed it right off.

This spraying came exactly one day too late. A rabbit ate the top half of the Julia Child earlier today. Julia had been doing well and had recently put four buds on her too. I hope she's well enough established that this won't bother her a lot.

Oh, well. Here's a picture of the culprit, taken a couple of weeks ago:



Best wishes,
Mary

Excellent with carrots and fries !

Pierre

Hello again,

I noticed that Pol was asking in the Growing Roses area about rose varieties you wouldn't decide to buy again if you had it to do all over. I thought about contributing to that thread, but didn't because I've seen threads like that in other places and tend to save the information gleaned in my own mind as something closer to "avoid that variety." The thread was a very good idea and helpful. I'm just thinking that nothing I've ordered ought to go into an "avoid" category for someone with a different set of circumstances--meaning, especially, enough sunlight for growing most roses.

I'd not buy Mortimer Sackler again because I've read that the rootstock that David Austin uses here is Dr. Huey, and also read that Dr. Huey tends to be short-lived in this area--something I didn't know when deciding on that variety. But the variety itself, for someone without that situation, is not disease prone and it still looks good to me. It wants to bloom heavily, and as soon as it broke dormancy here wanted to set buds, even in far too much shade. One thing I'd add is that if I lived somewhere else where Dr. Huey rootstock works better, I'd not plant it in only 2 hours of direct sunlight per day. Even though it is advertised as shade tolerant, it's not _that_ shade tolerant.

One other reason I'd not buy it again for this yard--but it would likely do great in yours!--is that I wouldn't plant any more bareroot roses at all, none of any kind. There are so many own root roses available that there's no reason to go with a rose that might add worries with stem canker because of having its thick canes sheared. I think we have a general problem with that in this yard.

The Mortimer Sacklers have been given a fit by stem canker. But it's not just them, it's also with the other bareroot roses new this year, Fragrant Wave, a Jackson and Perkins rose (bought from Wayside Gardens, also owned by the same folks now). Jackson and Perkins doesn't use Dr. Huey rootstock for deliveries around here, as far as I know. I orginally ordered just one Fragrant Wave, but it arrived totally dried out after an inexplicably long hold in transit, and they sent me a second one. But the first one, to my surprise, did live. So now there are two of them, and they're both in different situations from the Mortimer Sacklers: one in is a huge pot sitting in about a half day's sun (later morning and midday), and one is in the ground in full sun. They are doing similarly well, though the one in the ground in full sun started out as the second one delivered, and it looked like a much younger plant than the first one, the one that arrived totally dried out. They have both been disease-free except for stem canker that I've cut out. If I'd known then what I know now, I think I'd have immediately spread some Elmer's Glue on those thick canes where they had been trimmed by the seller.

The Fragrant Wave variety isn't remarkably different than what the pictures show, though perhaps the flowers are a bit smaller than what I'd imagined and a bit less fragrant, given the name. I never saw any pictures of the whole plant, though, and if I had, I wouldn't have bought it; I'm not that much into very thick stiff upright canes that are so tightly spaced that they are almost parallel. I mainly bought them for the fragrance, but also wanted something that had a white bloom that I could cut. I wouldn't say they don't work that way, but they don't work as well as I thought they would. The flowers don't last as long as l wish they would, and given that the plant itself isn't wonderfully attractive to me, at least not yet, I might have been better off looking for a hybrid tea that happens to be disease resistant to be used for flower cutting purposes. Both Fragrant Waves attract flower-eating bugs, including Japanese beetles, much more than the other roses have. Perhaps in a way, that's okay? Maybe they are the "protection" for the others? Thus far, Japanese beetles haven't attacked the Julia Child, the Cinco De Mayo, the Grüss An Aachen, the Double Knockout, or the Mortimer Sackler blooms. [Edit: That was yesterday! Today, the Japanese beetles have moved on to additional rose delectables.   ]

But I'm thinking about whether I really want to take up a valuable full-sun spot with Fragrant Wave, and wishing I'd not already planted the one in the ground. Still, by objective standards, it's very healthy and very, very floriferous (including the one in a half a day's sun), and has lots of foliage (even if the foliage appears on rather stiff canes narrowly placed in nearly parallel rigidity). As I type this, I realize how picky I might be! No, this rose doesn't belong in a spot in anyone's head labled "Must Avoid!" But I wouldn't personally buy it again in the future; I'm thinking of not keeping either one; relatively sunny spots are just so precious around here.

I'm not sure I'd buy the Double Knockout again. It's fine in every way other than fragrance, though I think it would be more vigorous if it had more than the approximately 3 hours of sun it's getting. I'd read that Knockout (the original) was doing great in someone's yard where it got no direct sunlight and then read that Double Knockout was the same as Knockout except for the appearance of the flower... and, well, I read that like a newbie might. Double Knockout is not almost the same as Knockout, it's a smaller plant, and perhaps less vigorous if getting only 3 hours of direct sunlight. (And I'm pretty sure now that the poster who said "no sun" relative to the original Knockout variety was exaggerating in order to emphasize a point he wanted to make.) Still, it's doing fine... just growing much more slowly than I'd like and not large enough to be covered with blooms. I probably shouldn't be letting it bloom at all. (Note: this is in contrast to the Cinco De Mayo, growing in full sun, that has maybe a dozen buds about to burst open now. It started as the tiniest plant you've ever seen, but it has *grown*. Cinco De Mayo does have a bit of fragrance, too. Not strong, but it's there.)

But if I had it to do over again, I might choose something larger and more fragrant for that semi-shady spot than the Double Knockout and just let the rose crowd into the blueberries on one side and tower over the azaleas on the other. I'd probably choose something like Lyda Rose or Nur Mahal.

One thing about all the varieties in this first year with roses: they tend to be disease-resistant. No surprises there.

Thus far, for sure I'd order again: Cornellia, Grüss An Aachen (3), Julia Child (2), Renae (working on rooting another one!) and Cinco De Mayo. But 2 Cinco De Mayos this time, as I think having two or more as punctuation marks (announcing a party!) in the landscape would look nice.

I'm not sure about White Pet. We have two of them, still in their original pots (but will eventually repot into something larger and then place that pot again into something pretty). The White Pets aren't very fragrant, but have tons of cute little pompom flowers. The only problem with the flowers is that for them to be attractive, you need to stay at the deadheading job, so the old brown ones don't detract from the view of the new ones. This will be easier once winter comes and they're on the backporch, assuming they continue to bloom there for awhile. There's a skylight and also the trees will have lost their leaves, so there will be some sun around.

Depending on how bad the winter is, we might just carry the potted White Pets indoors when it goes below about 29˚? Otherwise, just moving them off the table and putting them close to the house wall with glass ought to work. But perhaps this might get to be too much of a chore. If so, there are spots in the yard that would like to have them planted. There's just that deadheading problem... And of course, the more likely event is that they'll stop blooming when they realize it's pretty chilly outside, even if not totally freezing--so the backporch idea might not work. There's lots still to learn here!

One thing I've mulled over generally: flower size. I wouldn't mind having a rose with a huge flower, just to add some variety to a vase of roses. And some single roses, rather than all double, would add some nice variety too. Thus far the Julia Child comes closest to having a large flower, though in this first year, it's not as large as it eventually ought to get. My husband and I are both crazy about Julia Child. (I wonder whether there might be any hope for Julia Child in, say, 3 hours of direct sun??? Well, that's the ever-present question around here...)

Best wishes,
Mary

Last edited by MaryG (2009-06-21 23:21:55)

MaryG wrote:

It might be a good thing to wait for more than two months' experience to decide on a rose.

Yes, definitely. But the thing is that we actually decide on a rose much earlier: when we decide to get and plant a specific rose. Even with all the information we collect beforehand we can't be certain that this rose will do well in our garden and will "perform" as we have thought. Surely, experience and getting information helps but sometimes we nevertheless find out later that we wouldn't have bought this specific rose would we then have known what we know now ... At least this has been my experience.

I have profited much from the experience of others not least from the experience of members of this forum. But I also believe some garden experiences only can be made by ourselves. I think sometimes we just have to try things out, experiment, see what will work for our garden and what won't.

Mary, I've very much enjoyed reading your latest posts on this thread, your thoughts about your roses, your decisions, your experience with these roses. I also have to say I like your photo of 'Fragrant Wave' on HMF. Looks like an excellent rose to me ....

greetings
Hannes

I agree that it's really not possible to foresee how a rose is going to be in real life in our gardens. A rose that grows well, and "works well" in one garden may not not work at all in another! You are both so right!I also agree whole-heartedly with the importance of a roses's habit, it's appearence as an entire plant. Unfortuneately very often the only photos one sees are of the individual blooms,or maybe a particularly showy spray of them, but not a picture of the entire plant,and all too often there's no description either of it's habit. But habit makes such a big difference. A rose with a stiff, upright habit demands very particular placing,for example, whereas one that is lax and flexible needs a totally different sort of spot.
   Believe me, I know! This is why I was stressing out so much over my "climbers that won't climb". I had put Super Dorothy in a place where I wanted a tall climber; years have gone by and it refuses to go over 4.5 feet tall. As a result, the whole scheme for that bed does not function,and you can't really see Super D.; it's hidden by bigger plants. So this fall I'm planning to move all the plants out of that bed and start from scratch. I must admit I feel quite nervous about this,but it's the only solution. This time I'll put Super D in a place where it will still be visible even if it doesn't climb. Karlsruhe, too, is a problem-it's in a spot that really ought to be occupied by a climber. I wish I had known about this forum before I moved it,since the Old Rosarian pointed out the fact that the kordesii roses can behave this way. Harlekin, instead, is perfect-I wish all my climbers would be as big and showy as that! so this fall I'm going to go ahead and get Jasmina and Laguna, but will put them in places where they will work (hopefully) even if they refuse to climb... Yes, it's very challenging!   cheers from bart

Dear Mary,

I suppose you'll be interested to hear that 'Renae' is Rose of the Week on Carolyn Parker's blog Rose Notes. The respective post is in two parts, part 1 already is online, part 2 will follow later this week I guess. If you want to have a look: CLICK HERE.

greetings
Hannes

Hello Mary,

Just to tell you I loved to see your photo with 'Cinco De Mayo' in the gallery. 'Ghislaine de Féligonde' will be just great in that setting.

greetings
Hannes

Mary,

Just wanted to say I agree with Hannes, your Cinco De Mayo looks wonderful.

Cyndy

Mary,

I wish my new roses were growing that much!  It amazes me how some leap and others just crawl

Cyndy